The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

topic posted Wed, March 16, 2005 - 8:04 AM by  Jon
posted by:
Jon
offline Jon
Miami
  • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

    Fri, August 3, 2007 - 12:34 PM
    This should be bumped back to the top on occasion. I see we've had some undesirable posts in my absence. Sorry for that. I hope to be more active on Tribe from now on.
    • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

      Mon, August 6, 2007 - 10:21 AM
      welcome back

      • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

        Tue, August 7, 2007 - 6:49 AM
        Thanks, Kick me once in a while (I like the abuse) to remind me about this place.
        • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

          Tue, October 16, 2007 - 10:15 AM
          I think the Fee Verte faq is outstanding, but they may understate the case for thujone's psychoactivity. They seem to hold that thujone is either a trippy hallucinogen or it's not psychoactive at all, and it seems to me there is ample evidence that the truth lies in the grey area between those two extremes.

          Matthew Baggot's absinthe faq is also extremely interesting (more sciencey):
          erowid.org/chemicals/ab...the_faq.shtml
          • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

            Tue, October 16, 2007 - 12:56 PM
            I haven't looked at FV's faq in awhile so I'm not sure how it's stated. The evidence shows that thujone isn't psychoactive in the way it's often portrayed (not causing hallucinations) and it's only noticable at high levels beyond what unhistorical "high-thujone" absinthe claims.

            The problem with the Erowid link is it's not up to date and cites a number of now known to be wrong/questionable papers.
            • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

              Wed, October 17, 2007 - 10:45 PM
              Although it is clear that at high levels it is neurotoxic.
              • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                Thu, October 18, 2007 - 6:50 PM
                Well sure, of course so is caffeine, but we generally don't reach that level from starbucks (same with absinthe).

                One paper suggests alcohol is protective against the effects of thujone.
                (so ironically while most regulations are put on alcoholic drinks, we should be worried more about non-alcoholic sources of thujone, such as pure wormwood extract which is often sold with no regulation).
            • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

              Thu, October 18, 2007 - 8:29 AM
              Oh? Which papers?
              • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                Thu, October 18, 2007 - 8:30 PM
                Such as most of the Arnold papers.

                Some of it just needs updating like we know how thujone acts and how it is metabolized as well as what "psychoactive" really means when talking about thujone.
                • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                  Thu, October 18, 2007 - 10:15 PM
                  Scanning the FAQ, it seems to me that most of the Arnold stuff is still up-to-date. Of course, the bit about Arnold that is probably way off his is 260 mg/L thujone estimate, but that doesn't appear in the FAQ.

                  Good point about the psychoactivity stuff, although I don't think we're all that clear on what's going on there. We know that thujone is a GABA(A) antagonist and that it indirectly stimulates the serotonin 5-HT3 receptors, but don't know to what degree that accounts for its subjective effects. I think you're right - an update is in order.

                  Can you point me toward any research on thujone metabolism? I'm not aware of any.

                  thanks!

                  Lux
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                    Thu, October 18, 2007 - 10:56 PM
                    I find a lot of Arnold's research (that isn't echoed in newer better articles) questionable just because he seemed to have come to a conclusion then crafted his research around it (not that he is the only researcher to do that).

                    Tests point to thujone acting quite similar to other GABA antagonists both in what protects from it (alcohol protecting the subject from overdose) and overdose reactions. One problem I have with the FAQ is the general ambiguous nature, really there isn't anymore "maybe/maybe-not" when it comes to thujone, it's pretty obvious it's not the cause of any effects (that effects exist at all is quite questionable and something any article on effects should start with).

                    Thujone metabolism is buried in the Hold et Al study and it notes what appears to metabolize thujone. The rates of which seem to be rather fast. The large quantity of thujone in other herbs also suggests that if build up is possible it would more likely happen from say too many sage spiced dinners than the tiny dose received from a glass of absinthe.

                    Thujone.info has tons of articles, a few are more up to date than the WS article (linked below) but isn't as organized.
                    www.wormwoodsociety.org/index.php

                    On a side note, anyone interested in any possible effects absinthe has should also want thujone out of the way, once that myth is laid to rest perhaps researchers might start looking at the large number of other chemicals in the drink that have been largely ignored because 100+ years ago poor science said "thujone."
                    • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                      Fri, October 19, 2007 - 12:27 PM
                      Yes, thujone.info is outstanding!

                      I wouldn't write thujone out of the picture just yet:

                      www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez
                      • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                        Fri, October 19, 2007 - 1:39 PM
                        Wow real absinthe discussion! I am excited. I have some catching up to with the cited articles, but I must say that I have no interest in following a link to Erowid. They have never been interested in propagating truth or scientifically proven facts. They seem to prefer any course that equals "tripping balls" in the end, regardless of the facts. Now I'm not part of the anti-drug militia, but it's places like Erowid that had people buying and consuming thujone extract with their "absinthe recipes".
                        • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                          Fri, October 19, 2007 - 2:03 PM
                          I invite you to have another look at Erowid, which does not advocate the use of any psychoactive, but documents their use. Our references database includes nearly 8,000 entries from peer-reviewed scholarly publications, and quite a bit of technical material has been written specifically for the site by medical personnel and academics. Matthew Baggott's absinthe faq is just one example, and while it may need an update, it contains information that I've not found anywhere else on the web, having scoured numerous sites, books, and journal articles.

                          I'd also note that the absinthe recipes hosted on the Erowid site are quite traditional, requiring a post-maceration distillation, etc.
                          • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                            Fri, October 19, 2007 - 4:10 PM
                            I treat erowid like I do wikipedia (and anymore any other source, especially those that call themselves "journalists" but that's off the topic), double checking facts and running what I read through my own personal BS filter.
                      • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                        Fri, October 19, 2007 - 4:07 PM
                        You can find the whole text of that at thujone.info (if you are curious) and I also cited it in the WS article :)

                        While thujone does have an effect even un-historically high thujone absinthe is lower than the "high dose" in that study. Every modern absinthe created based on historical recipes (or historical bottles that have been tested) as well as all EU legal products fall a good 10x or so lower per dose.

                        In the same sense you could hallucinate from hot chocolate with nutmeg sprinkled on it, you would just need to drink a ton of hot chocolate.
                        • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                          Fri, October 19, 2007 - 8:27 PM
                          My thinking is that in fresh-wormwood, high-thujone absinthes produce a different inebriation. EU regulations allow thujone levels of 35 mg/L, which is well within the grey area of uncertainty of the study psychoactivity study I referred to. I could go on but the bottom line is that better answers to these questions clearly require experimental work. Besides, it doesn't matter that much, because the effect of thujone is not hallucinogenic anyway, as far as we know. So what if it's a more lucid inebriation?
                          • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                            Fri, October 19, 2007 - 8:47 PM
                            "My thinking is that in fresh-wormwood, high-thujone absinthes produce a different inebriation."
                            How do you know they are high in thujone?

                            "of 35 mg/L, which is well within the grey area of uncertainty of the study psychoactivity study I referred to."
                            How so?

                            "I could go on but the bottom line is that better answers to these questions clearly require experimental work."
                            Please go on. I'm curious what answers to what questions you think we need (I assume you have read the basics of the links given).

                            "So what if it's a more lucid inebriation?"
                            So what if it's one of the many other unresearched chemicals, if at all, and people have just been barking up the thuja tree?
                            • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                              Mon, October 22, 2007 - 11:42 AM
                              The Dettling et al. study I referred to found statistically significant differences in mood and attention in subjects who consumed liquor with 100 ppm thuojone (BAC = .05), and no statistically significant differences in subjects who consumed liquor with 10 ppm thuojne (BAC = .05), when compared with subjects who consumed alcohol alone (BAC = .05).

                              So we have measurable differences in liquor with 100 mg/L thujone, no measurable differences in these particular assessments with 10 mg/L thujone. What would we find at 35 mg/L thujone, which is currently allowed by EU law? Unknown - it lies between the 10 ppm condition and the 100 ppm. What would we find in the 10 mg/L condition if people drank more? (BAC .05 is pretty low) Unknown. If we're interested in the contribution of thujone to absinthe inebriation, we'd need to see studies with a greater resolution of analysis (i.e. more experimental conditions, more assessments).

                              Is it the case that other substances in absinthe are also psychoactive? Could well be. Does absinthe differ more from vodka than, say, tequila differs from vodka? Who knows?

                              Seems to me that there's a whole lot of sound and fury about this issue, mainly because of the panic bans passed in the wake of fears of so-called absinthism. Probably the role of thujone is not that significant, but it may be. There is some evidence that it has effects, and some small evidence that those effects may intensify with chronic use. Whether or not this is an issue that is interesting or worth pursuing is up to each individual, of course.
                              • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                                Mon, October 22, 2007 - 12:12 PM
                                "A paper in the Journal of Studies on Alcohol recorded the effects of 0.28 mg/kg thujone in alcohol, 0.028 mg/kg in alcohol and just plain alcohol on 25 subjects. To put those numbers in perspective, for a 68kg person that's 544ml of 35 mg/l absinthe, 54.4ml 35 mg/l absinthe and of course plain alcohol. The subjects were then given performance tests, the higher dose "had a negative effect on attention performance," the low dose and no dose showed no differences. Only three subjects could tell the difference between doses.[4] For thujone in absinthe to have a noticeable effect on someone it would need to exist in very high levels." -WS

                                So yes, while 35 wasn't tested I would gather that at 3 times lower than the high level, which only 3 subjects could identify, the effects are minimal, especially when combined with the high proof of absinthe.

                                The amount and effects of thujone constantly rate in studies as miniscule to non-existent.
                                Frankly I would like to see studies that threw away all the assumptions based on bad science or hearsay and stop scrambling around in the dark. Someone should do a study on whether absinthe has any effects beyond the alcohol, first, and then take it from there.
                                • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                                  Mon, October 22, 2007 - 2:52 PM
                                  I would still caution against the absinthes that load up on oil of wormwood. It is toxic. It tastes horribly bitter. And there are much better absinthes out there for not much more money.
                                  • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                                    Mon, October 22, 2007 - 5:45 PM
                                    The dismissal of the Dettling paper that you quote seems incoherent to me. Only 3 subjects could report the difference between experimental conditions? Great! That means the double-blind works, and the results are not due to expectancy.

                                    What the study establishes beyond question is that even relatively low amounts of thujone-infused alcohol have measurable effects (again, BAC = .05 is VERY LOW!).

                                    I'd be interested to see a study that showed strong evidence of minuscule amounts of thujone in absinthe, and I'm not willing to take Ted Breaux's word for it. In "Thujone - Cause of Absinthism?" Lachenmeier et al. found that 32% of the absinthes they reviewed in their meta-analysis contained over 10 ppm thujone. Gimpel et al. (2006) found significantly higher thujone levels in their study. And there are a number of crucial variables that have not been adequately controlled in Lachenmeier et al. (2005), including the age of the absinthe (alpha-thujone is known to degrade rapidly with exposure to light) and the age of the wormwood used at the time of manufacture (thujone breaks down relatively quickly, and dried wormwood yields low thujone ratings).

                                    If you're seriously interested in asking whether the diversity of beverages sold as absinthe contain psychoactive levels of thujone, then Lachenmeier et al.'s review cannot be regarded as complete. Currently, they are making the loudest, strongest case that vintage absinthes contain low levels of thujone (< 10 ppm) .
                                    • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                                      Mon, October 22, 2007 - 7:14 PM
                                      "Only 3 subjects could report the difference between experimental conditions? Great! That means the double-blind works, and the results are not due to expectancy."

                                      But when we are talking about something that people claim causes noticeable psychoactive effects from a glass or two, you don't find it odd the majority didn't notice after the equivalent of half a bottle or so? It would seem like the experiences and 'reports' aren't meshing with data and hypothesis.

                                      ----
                                      "even relatively low amounts of thujone-infused alcohol have measurable effects"

                                      Wow, I need to drink with you if you think half a liter of 'highest legal strength thujone' over-proof alcohol is low. :)

                                      ----
                                      "including the age of the absinthe (alpha-thujone is known to degrade rapidly with exposure to light)"

                                      A good case for clear bottles not containing the advertised thujone level. When dealing with pre-ban that's been stored in dark cellars in the correct glass it's less of a concern. Alpha thujone also leaves behind break down products.

                                      ----
                                      "and the age of the wormwood used at the time of manufacture (thujone breaks down relatively quickly, and dried wormwood yields low thujone ratings)."

                                      It's interesting that all the old manuals dried their wormwood before use (from what I understand fresh wormwood doesn't give the right flavor profile).


                                      So a question to you, what are basing your focus of thujone on? In other words, why do you think we should care about it in the first place?
                                      • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                                        Tue, October 23, 2007 - 11:33 AM
                                        I find quotations from that FAQ entirely unpersuasive. Their argument regarding how much absinthe would be necessary to produce a psychoactive effect assumes very low levels in absinthe, and that's part of what we're debating here. You cannot assume a value for one unknown variable to argue for an interpretation of the other unknown variable.

                                        And as I pointed out, even Lachenmeier et al. found a significant number of absinthes with thujone levels of around 35 ppm, and this is well into the gray area of the Dettling study. That is not to mention Gempling et al. who found much higher levels. And there is also the largely-unexplored possibility of accumulating effects.

                                        The fact that a small number of presumably absinthe-naive subjects couldn't tell the difference in three trials between the subjective effects of alcohol inebriation and the subjective effects of alcohol/thujone inebriation doesn't mean that someone who drinks absinthe regularly can't readily identify those effects, or that they don't exist. On the contrary, the one thing that the Dettling experiment unambiguously shows is that the effects of thujone DO show up.

                                        My interest in the psychoactivity of thujone is academic. I'm interested in psychoactive materials in general, and absinthe is an interesting topic. I also enjoy drinking absinthe. I don't argue that anyone else should be interested in thujone - just that our descriptions of absinthe should be based on the best available data.

                                        Many of the people arguing against the psychoactivity of thujone (such as the editor of thujone.info) are either selling absinthe or are closely tied to people who are selling it. These guys have a direct financial stake in convincing people that authentic absinthes have low enough thujone levels to meet current regulatory standards (the US TTB currently requires <10 ppm thujone), so I take some of their findings with a grain of salt - particularly when they dismiss incompatible findings.

                                        What I don't understand is why you're insisting that thujone in absinthe is not psychoactive. What's your hurry to reach a conclusion? The tiny number of available studies have established that under some circumstances thujone does produce measurable effects. A good understanding of how thujone works in contemporary and vintage absinthes requires more study. This is all I have argued - why should that be objectionable to you?
                                        • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                                          Tue, October 23, 2007 - 12:59 PM
                                          "I find quotations from that FAQ entirely unpersuasive. Their argument regarding how much absinthe would be necessary to produce a psychoactive effect assumes very low levels in absinthe, and that's part of what we're debating here."

                                          Then you have evidence absinthe has high thujone levels? Every test I've seen, and those that are actually cited in the WS article found low levels.

                                          Which study shows 35ppm?
                                          A few studies have reported questionable results on modern absinthe (questionable by using older tests and marketing claims). These numbers are all still low. Can you drink half a liter of absinthe and not have the alcohol seriously effect you?

                                          ----
                                          "The fact that a small number of presumably absinthe-naive subjects couldn't tell the difference in three trials between the subjective effects of alcohol inebriation and the subjective effects of alcohol/thujone inebriation doesn't mean that someone who drinks absinthe regularly can't readily identify those effects, or that they don't exist."

                                          So the idea that drinking a glass will produce noticeably different effects from alcohol is out the window, right? That's the majority of claims.

                                          You are confusing absinthe with thujone. They were thujone-naive subjects (such as most people) who couldn't tell the difference when taking the drug that is claimed to cause noticable effects. Perhaps it really doesn't cause said effects in such low doses.

                                          I know plenty of constant absinthe drinkers, so far nothing in the way of built up effects.

                                          That's go one further, what effects are you talking about and how is the existence of these effects supported?

                                          ----
                                          "My interest in the psychoactivity of thujone is academic. I'm interested in psychoactive materials in general,"

                                          I think I didn't word the question right.
                                          What makes you think it's thujone? Where did you get the idea that thujone causes effects in absinthe?
                                          (The point being that every time I've traced back thujone claims they always start with questionable science or false claims.)

                                          ----
                                          "Many of the people arguing against the psychoactivity of thujone (such as the editor of thujone.info) are either selling absinthe or are closely tied to people who are selling it... so I take some of their findings with a grain of salt - particularly when they dismiss incompatible findings. "

                                          But is their data faulty? How is Lachenmeier connected? How am I connected?
                                          Thujone.info mainly posts articles by other people, please show how they are connected. What findings have they dismissed?

                                          ----
                                          "What I don't understand is why you're insisting that thujone in absinthe is not psychoactive."

                                          Because that's what every piece of credible evidence says.

                                          ----
                                          "The tiny number of available studies have established that under some circumstances thujone does produce measurable effects."

                                          Under certain circumstances nutmeg causes intense hallucinations.
                                          Based on that logic, people should be doing hot chocolate to hallucinate.
                                          • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                                            Tue, October 23, 2007 - 1:13 PM
                                            I feel that I've made my case well beyond the point of reasonableness. I've given several specific citations to journal articles describing variable levels of thujone in absinthe, and even the authors most committed to demonstrating low mean thujone levels in absinthe (Lachenmeier et cetera) have reported several vintange absinthes in the region of 35 ppm. If you're uncertain about this I suggest that you have a look at the studies I've cited, such as "Thujone - Cause of Absinthism?".

                                            You haven't referred to a single study that contradicts this finding, but instead allude to absinthe studies that show lower levels. Okay, show me one. I've made exhaustive reviews of the literature in recent months and I don't believe that such studies exist.

                                            Why do I believe that thujone causes unique psychoactive effects in absinthe? Because as I've said over and over and over again, the one controlled study that has actually looked for such effects found them.

                                            "The tiny number of available studies have established that under some circumstances thujone does produce measurable effects."

                                            >> Based on that logic, people should be doing hot chocolate to hallucinate.

                                            That is absolute nonsense. We're talking about 100 ppm thujone, with BAC = .05. That is not far from the range of absinthes allowed by EU regulation, and it is not far from the range of any analysis of thujone content of absinthe that I have seen.
                                            • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                                              Tue, October 23, 2007 - 1:27 PM
                                              "have reported several vintange absinthes in the region of 35 ppm. If you're uncertain about this I suggest that you have a look at the studies I've cited, such as "Thujone - Cause of Absinthism?"."

                                              Cause of absinthism says no such thing. Can you please quote or link to these studies.
                                              it does say, "half of the examined samples (55%) [in a meta-study on modern and vintage (I think) absinthe] contained less than 2 mg/l thujon"

                                              ----
                                              "You haven't referred to a single study that contradicts this finding, but instead allude to absinthe studies that show lower levels. Okay, show me one. I've made exhaustive reviews of the literature in recent months and I don't believe that such studies exist."

                                              I gave you a nice list of studies in the WS article.

                                              ----
                                              "Because as I've said over and over and over again, the one controlled study that has actually looked for such effects found them."

                                              The study didn't test absinthe or thujone levels even close to absinthe.
                                              Again to reach the level that only 3 people could notice (remember it's an effect that is supposed to be noticable) is half a liter of 35mg/l absinthe and according to "cause of absinthism" that far exceeds any vintage or historical recipe tested and the majority of modern products.
                                              • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                                                Wed, October 24, 2007 - 12:40 PM
                                                I confess this discussion has grown tedious for me and I'm not so interested in carrying it on. Have another look at "Thujone - Cause of Absinthism?". In particular, pay attention to Table 6 at the top of page 5.

                                                I'm not sure why you're so committed to the idea that absinthe contains very low thujone levels, but it reminds me of Nietzsche's maxim "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."

                                                There is not enough data to make a firm conclusion on this matter. Keep your eyes out for a forthcoming study by Nathan-Maister and Breaux that will challenge some of your assumptions.
                                                • Re: The most accurate Absinthe FAQ on the net

                                                  Wed, October 24, 2007 - 1:11 PM
                                                  "In particular, pay attention to Table 6 at the top of page 5. "

                                                  That says nothing about vintage and is the table I posted a quote about

                                                  The full quote, "Table 6 presents the results of four recently conducted
                                                  studies of the thujone content of commercially available
                                                  absinthe and includes own results determined by the CVUA
                                                  Karlsruhe [24,35,36]. In conclusion, it can be noted that the
                                                  majority of the examined samples (95%) did not exceed the
                                                  thujone EU maximum limit of 35 mg/l. Strikingly, more than
                                                  half of the examined samples (55%) contained less than
                                                  2 mg/l thujone."

                                                  (I wonder how many people have thought or claimed they could feel the 'absinthe effect' while drinking the 2mg/l bottles.)

                                                  ---
                                                  "Keep your eyes out for a forthcoming study by Nathan-Maister and Breaux that will challenge some of your assumptions. "

                                                  Do you have some insider information I don't?
                                                  It would need to run counter to everything that is out there. I don't doubt absinthe can easily have "high" levels of thujone (and said so in the WS article) but these "high" levels appear to be rare, varied and quite low compared to effects, effects seem to be different than claimed and claims seem to have no factual support. The entire idea thujone matters is built on nothing but sand.

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